Discutii preliminare - Concurs Android Netrunner

[Minel]

Recunosc ca si la mine una din probleme e ca am uitat jocul acasa.
Incerc sa vin saptamana viitoare, chiar am chef de Netrunner.

[Rautz]

Mi-am luat si eu primele 2 extensii, deci Minel, daca vrei, putem juca cu deckuri formate si din acestea.
Sa avem totusi si deckurile Core, pentru a juca cu ceilalti doritori (Tavi daca mai vrea, poate altii)

[Minel]

Cool stuff!

Dar ce facem ca eu marti il primesc si pe al 3lea?

[Rautz]

Poate mai bine jucam toti cu acelasi lucru, pentru a putea toti progresa impreuna, si la un moment dat, cand se strang suficienti oameni, adaugam x expansiuni si jucam toti cu aceleasi.
In curand o sa mai iau un Core Set si atunci eu si Anca vom juca numai Android Netrunner in Lente, nu mai vin pentru Ticket to Ride-uri sau Fresco

[Minel]

Da, da, evident ziceam in spirit de gluma.

Ticket to Ride, auzi... Bineinteles ca nu trebuie sa te duci pana in Lente sa joci asa ceva. Ticket to Ride joci cand esti plictisit complet si vrei sa-ti speli creierul. E echivalentul unui Angry Birds pe buda.

[Rautz]

Ati vrea Marti in loc de Lente sa mergem in Deja Vu? (seara boardgames organizata de tudro)
As vrea sa incerc si acel local si asta ar fi o ocazie buna.

[MandrulDuce]

Eu marti dezertez. Next week

[Rautz]

In cazul asta eu cu Anca mergem in Deja Vu.

[Rautz]

Mare atentie cand jucati cu jucatori noi sa fie clare regulile de conduita permise. Intr-un joc ca Android Netrunner se pot intampla multe lucruri care in alte jocuri sunt permise.
Am dat deja exemplul cu decizia runnerului dupa fiecare Ice daca va continua sau nu.

Uite un subiect interesant: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/937 ... lay/page/1

Parerile sunt impartite acolo, si poate in grupul vostru vi se pare perfect normal sa faceti astfel de lucruri. Dar de exemplu daca cineva imi face o astfel de 'mutare', nu voi mai juca in viata mea cu respectivul. Venind din poker, pot spune ca exista sute de feluri de a blufa. Dar atunci cand anunti o actiune verbal esti nevoit sa o faci, nu e bluf.
La fel se poate intampla cu retrasul mutarilor. In jocurile unde nu influenteaza pe ceilalti jucatori iar ceilalti nu au reactionat sau mutat nu am nici o problema cu retragerea mutarii. In Android insa cu orice mutare poti vedea reactia adversarului, daca acest lucru s-a intamplat, nu mai poti da inapoi (de exemplu: 'fac un run aici', te uiti la el, observi ce vrea sa faca dupa care zici 'ah ba nu, m-am razgandit')

Chiar daca e un joc amical, iar jocul e bazat intr-o oarecare masura pe blufuri, aveti grija ca acestea sa se incadreze intr-o anumita limita de respect si actiunile voastre si table talk-ul sa nu-l faca pe oponent sa se simta prost.

[Chuckila]

Anuntul verbal este binding!

Daca a anuntat ca avanseaza o carte unrezzed instalata in remote server iar runnerul sparge ice-ul si descopera ca nu era agenda sau asset care putea sa fie avansat, fara doar si poate a castigat jocul. No questions asked.

Indiferent cat de friendly e jocul, decizia anuntata verbal este la fel de valida ca si cea pe care o duci la bun sfarsit prin actiune non-verbala.

Pe de alta parte daca amicul spunea "Sorry, e o carte care nu poate fi avansata de aia imi retrag mutarea", nu aveai cum sa il tii responsabil. Ti-a dat aceleasi informatii la care avea si el acces, jocul este din nou jucat de pe pozitii de egalitate.

[Rautz]

Eh da, dar daca vei citi threadul din linkul dat de mine, o sa observi o gramada de oameni care sustin ca in grupul lor sunt liberi sa vorbeasca toate cele, nimic nu e binding la ei (nu inteleg insa cum fac run-uri, singurul mod de a face run este sa zici 'fac run')

[Chuckila]

E normal, la "home games" fiecare poate sa faca ce vrea si cum vrea atata timp cat ambii joaca dupa aceleasi house rules. Acasa joci dupa cum te taie capul - daca atata poti, asa joci.

Insa la orice concurs de LCG, anuntul verbal este binding.

Si ca tot veni vorba de home games si jocurile intre "prieteni", eu nu i-as face o asemenea miscare ieftina unui prieten. WTF?! Si in forma de gluma este una extrem de proasta.

[Rautz]

Mai ales unui prieten. De aia am si spus ca daca mi s-ar face asa ceva, n-as mai juca niciodata cu respectivul.
In conditii de concurs e altceva, nu promovez dar nici nu condamn un comportament la limita regulamentului. Daca e permis ceva imoral, regulamentul e de vina.

[Rautz]

Vreau sa avem o mica discutie pe baza regulamentului oficial Android Netrunner.
O sa copiez aici partile mai interesante, il las in engleza ca sa fie mai usor(ca sa joci jocul oricum trebuie sa stii engleza):

Player Conduct
Card Interpretations and Rules
Remember the golden rule when interpreting card effects and interactions: if the text of a card directly conflicts with the rules of the game, the card text takes precedence.
The tournament organizer (“TO”) is the final authority for all card interpretations at that event.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them.
This prohibits maintaining an illegal game state, colluding with another player, behaving inappropriately, scouting decks, artificially manufacturing the results of a match, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, etc. The TO, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Cheating
Cheating will not be tolerated. The TO reviews all cheating allegations, and he or she can immediately remove an offending player from the tournament if he or she believes that player has cheated.

Slow Play
Players must play in a timely fashion regardless of the complexity of the game situation and adhere to time limits specified in the tournament. Players must maintain a pace to allow the match to be finished within the announced time limit. Stalling is not acceptable. Players may request a TO to watch their game for slow play

Verbal announcements
So long as the verbal announcements refer specifically to game actions, they are binding, and the player has to perform those actions. It's also encouraged all actions are accompanied by verbal announcements so that the actions are clear to the opposing player.

Taking back moves
Taking back moves and asking for permission to take back moves are not allowed except the case when an illegal game state was produced by one of the moves. In that case the player has to tell his opponent the nature of the illegal game state and take back his move. However if that illegal game state changed the result of future actions they need to call the TO and he may decide the loss of the game by the offending player(he gets to keep the points from the agendas scored up to that point)

Pregame Information
Corporation and Runner Decks
Each player must bring both 1 Corporation and 1 Runner deck to a tournament. Players will play both decks against each opponent.

Authorized Cards
All Android: Netrunner Core Set cards produced by Fantasy Flight Games are legal.

Deck List
Players have the right to check the opponent's deck after a game. If it doesn't correspond to the deck restrictions detailed below the owner of the deck forfeits that game 0-10 and is allowed to change his deck for future matches.

Card Sleeves
No card sleeves are required for local events, but players are encouraged to use sleeves to protect their cards.

Deck Restrictions
When building a deck for organized play, players must observe the following restrictions:
• A deck must be associated with a single identity card, and cannot contain fewer cards than the minimum deck size value listed on the chosen identity card. There is no maximum deck size, but the deck must be able to be sufficiently randomized in a short period of time. Identity cards, reference cards, and click tracker cards are never counted as part of a deck and do not count against the minimum deck size.
• A deck cannot have more than three copies of a single card (by title) in it.
• A deck associated with a Runner identity can never contain Corporation cards, and vice versa.
• A deck cannot contain out-of-faction cards with a total influence value that exceeds the influence limit listed on the chosen identity card. Cards that match the faction of the identity card do not count against this limit.
• A Corporation deck must have a specific number of agenda points in it based on the size of the deck, as follows:
- 40 to 44 cards requires 18 or 19 agenda points.
- 45 to 49 cards requires 20 or 21 agenda points.
- 50 to 54 cards requires 22 or 23 agenda points.
For decks larger than this, add 2 additional agenda points to the 54 card deck requirements each time the number of cards in the deck reaches a multiple of 5 (55, 60, 65, etc.).

Tokens
Players are responsible to bring their own tokens for tournament play.

Miscellany
Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized by some form of shuffling prior to the start of every game and whenever instruction requires it.
Each time a deck is randomized, the opponent must be given an opportunity to shuffle and/or cut the cards as well.

Open Information
The number of cards in a player’s hand or deck, and the number of credits in his credit pool, are open information.

Taking Notes
Players are not allowed to take notes to aid memory or gameplay, whether physically or digitally, during a tournament match. Referencing outside material and information during a match is also prohibited, except for official rule documents.

Tournament Organizer Participation
The TO may participate in a tournament for which he or she is responsible only if there is a second tournament organizer present. This second TO must be present and announced at the beginning of the tournament, and is responsible for all rulings for games in which the primary TO is playing.

Tournament and Match Structure
Tournament Formats
All officially sanctioned tournaments for Android: Netrunner will use the following format:
• Swiss Format
• 90 minute rounds
• Match play consisting of two games

Match Structure
A match consists of two games. Players alternate playing Corporation and Runner during a match. For the first game of a match, the players must decide who will play Corporation and who will play Runner by using a random method (such as a die roll or coin flip). The winner of this random method chooses which side to play.
After drawing his or her starting hand, the Corporation must decide first whether to take his or her mulligan, followed by the Runner.

Winning Matches
The winner of each match is the player with the most match points at the conclusion of the match.
The winner of a game scores 10 match points. The loser of a game scores match points equal to the number of agenda points he or she had at the time the game ended.
At the conclusion of the match each player totals up the match points he or she scored in both games, and the player with the highest total wins the match.

Prestige
At the conclusion of each match, players are awarded prestige based on their results. For each game a player wins during his or her match, he or she gains 2 prestige. The winner of the match also gains an additional 2 prestige. Thus, the potential maximum amount of prestige that a player can gain each round is 6. Remember that you still gain prestige for winning a game, even if you lose the match.
Example: Kevin just finished playing his match against Jasmine, and each player won a single game. This means that they each gain 2 prestige. In order to figure out who won the match, they total up their match points from both games. Kevin won the first game (10 points) but lost the second game with only 3 agenda points. This gives him a total of 13 match points. Jasmine lost the first game but had 5 agenda points when she did, and won the second game (10 points). This gives her 15 match points. Jasmine wins the match and gains 2 additional prestige.
In the case of a tied match, players split the prestige for that match (each gaining 1 prestige).

Going to Time
Players play both games over the course of 90 minutes. The second game is not started until the first game is completed.
If time is called and neither player has achieved victory in the current game, then play continues until both players have completed one turn. If victory has still not been achieved after the final turn, then no one wins the game and the players score match points based on the number of agenda points they currently have. Players then total up their match points like normal to see who won the match.
In the case of an unfinished game, players split the prestige for that game (each gaining 1 prestige).
Example: Simon and Doc are unable to finish their current game in time. Simon is taking his turn when time is called, and so the game is completed after Doc’s next turn. At that point Simon has 6 agenda points and Doc has 4, so Simon scores 6 points for the match, and Doc scores 4. Each player also gains 1 prestige for the unfinished game, even though Simon had more agenda ponts.

If the players have not started the second game of a match when time is called, then they do not gain any prestige from that game. A game is not considered to have started until the Corporation draws 1 card from R&D at the beginning of his first turn.

Tournament Structure
Each tournament round, players gain prestige based on the results of their games and match. After a predetermined number of tournament rounds (depending on the field size and time constraints of the tournament), either a tournament champion is declared or there is a cut to a single-elimination bracket. The elimination bracket is generally used for larger tournaments.
If there is no elimination bracket, then the player with the most prestige after all tournament rounds are completed is the winner of the tournament, with ties broken by total match points accrued during the tournament.

[Rautz]

Lucruri omise din regulamentul oficial:

-cartile autorizate le-am limitat la Core Set momentan. Nu pot limita la un singur Core Set pentru ca e destul de greu de verificat (numarul de carti, numarul de influente de la alte factiuni si numarul de puncte de agenda sunt mult mai usor de verificat)

-deck lists, in concursurile importante jucatorii trebuie sa-si dea lista cu cartile cu care vor juca, pentru verificarea celor scrise mai sus. Problema la noi e ca TO-ul probabil va juca in turneu si ar fi inechitabil ca el sa vada lista tuturor participantilor. De asemenea nu e corect nici sa verifice acest lucru inaintea partidelor.
Singura solutie pe care o vad e ca jucatorii sa aiba voie sa verifice deckul adversarului dupa meci. Daca se gaseste un deck ilegal(nu corespunde cu deck restrictions) acesta pierde respectiva partida cu 10-0. Poate ca e dura decizia dar asta face ca jucatorii sa-si verifice cu atentie deckurile, daca nu respecta restrictiile isi pot crea un avantaj foarte mare

-am scos regula de 65(+/-10) minute/partida. Suntem toti incepatori si pot dura putin mai mult partidele, si nu mi se pare echitabil sa lasam partide neterminate.
Incercam sa ne facem timp cat sa avem timp sa terminam un turneu chiar daca stam putin mai mult. Ramane insa prevederea ca jucatorii sa nu traga de timp, iar TO-ul poate lua masuri daca se intampla asa ceva.

-o sa fim putini participanti momentan si nu e cazul sa trecem de la swiss la KO pentru desemnarea castigatorului. Si la Twilight Struggle am folosit swiss iar clasamentul a reflectat foarte bine valoarea jucatorilor. Pentru 'spectacol' insa se poate face un KO cu primii 2 clasati daca se doreste, dar teoretic nu e prea corect.

-as adauga in regulament ca jucatorii nu au voie sa dea mutari inapoi(din oarecare motive regula asta nu o vad in regulamentul oficial) si mutarile anuntate verbal sunt considerate mutari efectuate. E chiar incurajat ca toate mutarile sa fie anuntate verbal pentru a inlatura orice dubii asupra actiunilor (exemplu Mandatory Card Draw sa fie anuntat pentru a nu fi confundat cu o actiune de Draw sau '3 actiuni iau 3 credite' in loc de a lua pur si simplu un pumn de credite si a lasa adversarul sa ghiceasca daca a facut 1 actiune, 2 sau 3 etc.)

-in cazul aparitiei de illegal game state TO-ul poate determina castigarea partidei de catre oponent daca acea mutare ilegala l-a dezavantajat in joc
(exemplu Corp instaleaza o agenda in loc de ice, dupa care Runner face run la HQ si nu gaseste agenda. Greseala l-a impiedicat pe runner sa gaseasca agenda)


Imi spuneti va rog daca aveti comentarii asupra regulamentului si mai ales asupra ultimelor puncte pe care le-am modificat putin fata de regulamentul oficial.

[Rautz]

Am adaugat sectiunile Deck List, Taking back moves si Verbal announcements.

Daca nu aveti obiectii o sa folosim acest regulament pentru concursurile de Android pe care le vom organiza de acum incolo.

[fl0po]

cand se intampla concursul?

[tudro]

Baietii sunt la antrenamente in Deja Vu acum. Concurs o sa facem si noi pe 30 la Table Top Day. Mai avem de pus la punct cateva detalii si o sa-l anuntam.

[Rautz]

Pe 30 va fi primul concurs cu ajutorul lui tudro, dar dupa aia eu cu MandrulDuce vom incerca sa facem ceva concursuri la interval regulat, mai avem de pus la punct detalii.

[Rautz]

Pentru ca MandrulDuce era speriat ca extensiile debalanseaza jocul, am facut acum 2 deckuri avand la dispozitie 3 extensii:
-din 49 carti am folosit 6 carti din extensii(2x3)
-din 54 carti am folosit 6 carti din extensii(2x3)

Pe parcurs dupa ce apar multe extensii s-ar putea sa mai creasca procentul dar eu nu cred ca va fi deloc debalansat jocul chiar daca unii jucatori nu detin toate extensiile. Cel mult pot sa apara anumite carti overpowered si vor fi rapid banate din competitii.

Deci momentan nu e nici o grija.